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#621 OneStepCloser

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Posted 24 January 2011 - 12:12 PM

How much weight does all that paint add to the airplane?
It's got to be at least a ton.



Hey Lefty!  It's been awhile since anything was posted....

Paint This!!!


I always enjoy watching those time lapse videos.  Now if they could just do the same video with the "Benny Hill" (Yakety Sax) music, it would be hilarious.


I found this online:

When an airline orders a plane, the paintwork is normally done at the manufacturer*s assembly plant. So, if you decide to buy a Boeing 777-200 from the Company, the decorative painting is included in the base price of the airplane.

How much paint is used would depend on the customer*s requirement. If only the upper and lower half of the fuselage, tail and customer markings were considered, it requires about 475 pounds (215 kg) of paint. Without paintwork at the bottom half of the fuselage, then only 330 pounds (150 kg) of paint would be required. To paint a bigger Boeing 747-400, you would require over 90 gallons of paint. That is enough to paint the inside of four family houses! The paint here would weigh around 555 lb (252 kg). Hence, any additional paintwork would add to the overall weight of the plane.

Some airlines prefer a polished airplane as it is lighter and save fuel cost. However, this savings is more than offset by the higher cost of washing, polishing and painting a polished fuselage throughout its service life. I believe there are some regulated procedures in conducting a proper painting job. Thus, to maintain a good image of having cleaner or newer planes, most airlines would repaint their aircraft once in every four years.

When a plane is sold or leased to another company, repainting works would usually be required. Normally, they do not completely strip the paintworks. Instead, they would alternate between complete stripping and merely scuff sanding the existing paint layer and applying a new topcoat.

Generally, airplanes should never carry more than two layers of paint. With more than two layers, operating efficiency drops, inspections become more difficult and corrosion can start under a fresh topcoat.


I remember hearing about how many gallons it would take and I thought it's more than 200...not to mention that this paint has to be extremely tolerant of heat, cold, and high subsonic speeds...

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#622 HoustonControl

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Posted 24 January 2011 - 03:56 PM

Are the weights you listed before the paint is put on, or after it has dried?  Dried paint would only weigh a fraction of what it did before application.
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#623 Lefty Writer

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Posted 24 January 2011 - 08:37 PM

Hey Lefty!

It's....it's.....it's......an.........AIRBUS!!!!!!!!!!!  :o :o :o


What was that....???

If it ain't Boeing, I ain't going.  Right?

:D
carpe cerevisi

#624 OneStepCloser

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Posted 25 January 2011 - 08:08 AM

Are the weights you listed before the paint is put on, or after it has dried?  Dried paint would only weigh a fraction of what it did before application.

 

Dried because that figures into the OEW (operational empty weight)

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#625 OneStepCloser

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Posted 25 January 2011 - 08:09 AM


Hey Lefty!

It's....it's.....it's......an.........AIRBUS!!!!!!!!!!!  :o :o :o


What was that....???

If it ain't Boeing, I ain't going.  Right?

:D


Most definitely  O0

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#626 OneStepCloser

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Posted 18 February 2011 - 01:58 PM

Hey Lefty!

Now this has to be a first, and if not, it's still pretty rare:  N522UA is a B757-200 that UAL has been flying around for quite some time...but to see it in each of FOUR different liveries has got to be very rare nowadays....check it out:  (You can always go to airliners.net and search for that reg number if you want to see the number better....)

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#627 Lefty Writer

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Posted 18 February 2011 - 02:29 PM

Wow!
If that 757 has been around long enough to have the "old" livery (first pic), I bet it has seen a LOT of cycles on the frame.  But then again, if it's that old, it's probably paid for.
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#628 OneStepCloser

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Posted 22 February 2011 - 01:15 PM

Hey Lefty!

Check it out!  The first 747-400 in the new livery!  Haven't seen a 747 in those "colors" since about 1998...

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#629 Lefty Writer

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Posted 22 February 2011 - 01:58 PM

I haven't seen an operational/line 747 in CAL livery (yeah, I know, techincally it's "United" livery, but I'm gonna call it what I want to) in a lonnnnnnng time! Prolly about as long since I've seen a DC-10 in CAL livery....
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#630 Team Troglodyte

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Posted 23 February 2011 - 06:11 AM

Hey Lefty!

Now this has to be a first, and if not, it's still pretty rare:  N522UA is a B757-200 that UAL has been flying around for quite some time...but to see it in each of FOUR different liveries has got to be very rare nowadays....check it out:  (You can always go to airliners.net and search for that reg number if you want to see the number better....)


The FAA registration database shows the year of manufacture as 1990 and the registered owner as Wells Fargo Bank.  It would be fun to run the photos through morphing software so you could watch the change of livery over the years.

#631 HoustonControl

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Posted 23 March 2011 - 05:19 PM

Someone sent me this in a forwarded email.  Interesting reading!

Subject: Flying into Japan's earthquake

I'm currently still in one piece, writing from my room in the Narita crew hotel.  It's 8am. This is my inaugural trans-pacific trip as a brand new, recently checked out, international 767 Captain and it has been interesting, to say the least, so far. I've crossed the Atlantic three times so far so the ocean crossing procedures were familiar.

By the way, stunning scenery flying over the Aleutian Islands. Everything was going fine until 100 miles out from Tokyo and in the descent for arrival. The first indication of any trouble was that Japan air traffic control started putting everyone into holding patterns. At first we thought it was usual congestion on arrival. Then we got a company data link message advising about the earthquake, followed by another stating Narita airport was temporarily closed for inspection and expected to open shortly (the company is always so positive).

From our perspective things were obviously looking a little different. The Japanese controller's anxiety level seemed quite high and he said expect "indefinite" holding time. No one would commit to a time frame on that so I got my copilot and relief pilot busy looking at divert stations and our fuel situation, which, after an ocean crossing is typically low.

It wasn't long, maybe ten minutes, before the first pilots started requesting diversions to other airports. Air Canada, American, United, etc. all reporting minimal fuel situations. I still had enough fuel for 1.5 to 2.0 hours of holding. Needless to say, the diverts started complicating the situation.

Japan air traffic control then announced Narita was closed indefinitely due to damage. Planes immediately started requesting arrivals into Haneada, near Tokyo, a half dozen JAL and western planes got clearance in that direction but then ATC announced Haenada had just closed. Uh oh! Now instead of just holding, we all had to start looking at more distant alternatives like Osaka, or Nagoya.

One bad thing about a large airliner is that you can't just be-pop into any little airport. We generally need lots of runway. With more planes piling in from both east and west, all needing a place to land and several now fuel critical ATC was getting over-whelmed. In the scramble, and without waiting for my fuel to get critical, I got my flight a clearance to head for Nagoya, fuel situation still okay. So far so good. A few minutes into heading that way, I was "ordered" by ATC to reverse course. Nagoya was saturated with traffic and unable
to handle more planes (read- airport full). Ditto for Osaka.

With that statement, my situation went instantly from fuel okay, to fuel minimal considering we might have to divert a much farther distance. Multiply my situation by a dozen other aircraft all in the same boat, all making demands requests and threats to ATC for clearances somewhere. Air Canada and then someone else went to "emergency" fuel situation. Planes started to heading for air force bases. The nearest to Tokyo was Yokoda AFB. I threw my hat in the ring for that initially. The answer - Yokoda closed! No more space.

By now it was a three ring circus in the cockpit, my copilot on the radios, me flying and making decisions and the relief copilot buried in the air charts trying to figure out where to go that was within range while data link messages were flying back and forth between us and company dispatch in Atlanta. I picked Misawa AFB at the north end of Honshu island. We could get there with minimal fuel remaining. ATC was happy to get rid of us so we cleared out of the maelstrom of the Tokyo region. We heard ATC try to send planes toward Sendai, a small regional airport on the coast which was later the one I think that got flooded by a tsunami.

Atlanta dispatch then sent us a message asking if we could continue to Chitose airport on the Island of Hokkaido, north of Honshu. Other Delta planes were heading that way. More scrambling in the cockpit - check weather, check charts, check fuel, okay. We could still make it and not be going into a fuel critical situation ... if we had no other fuel delays. As we approached Misawa we got clearance to continue to Chitose. Critical decision thought process. Let's see - trying to help company - plane overflies perfectly good divert airport for one farther away...wonder how that will look in the safety report, if anything goes wrong.

Suddenly ATC comes up and gives us a vector to a fix well short of Chitose and tells us to standby for holding instructions. Nightmare realized. Situation rapidly deteriorating. After initially holding near Tokyo, starting a divert to Nagoya, reversing course back to Tokyo then to re-diverting north toward Misawa, all that happy fuel reserve that I had was vaporizing fast. My subsequent conversation, paraphrased of course...., went something like this:

"Sapparo Control - Delta XX requesting immediate clearance direct to Chitose, minimum fuel, unable hold."

"Negative Ghost-Rider, the Pattern is full" <<< top gun quote <<<

"Sapparo Control - make that - Delta XX declaring emergency, low fuel, proceeding direct Chitose"

"Roger Delta XX, understood, you are cleared direct to Chitose, contact Chitose approach....etc...."

Enough was enough, I had decided to preempt actually running critically low on fuel while in another indefinite holding pattern, especially after bypassing Misawa, and played my last ace...declaring an emergency. The problem with that is now I have a bit of company paperwork to do but what the heck.

As it was - landed Chitose, safe, with at least 30 minutes of fuel remaining before reaching a "true" fuel emergency situation. That's always a good feeling, being safe. They taxied us off to some remote parking area where we shut down and watched a half dozen or more other airplanes come streaming in. In the end, Delta had two 747s, my 767 and another 767 and a 777 all on the ramp at Chitose. We saw two American airlines planes, a United and two Air Canada as well. Not to mention several extra Al Nippon and Japan Air Lines planes.

Post-script - 9 hours later, Japan air lines finally got around to getting a boarding ladder to the plane where we were able to get off and clear customs. - that however, is another interesting story.

By the way - while writing this - I have felt four additional tremors that shook the hotel slightly - all in 45 minutes.

Cheers,
J.D.

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#632 Team Troglodyte

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Posted 23 March 2011 - 06:57 PM

Someone sent me this in a forwarded email.  Interesting reading!

Subject: Flying into Japan's earthquake . . .


Great story.  Sounds like all involved, both ATC and air crews, handled the situation well in view of the extraordinary conditions.  Spent a few years in Chitose myself once upon a time, so the story was also interesting from that angle.



#633 jimjoandcourt

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Posted 24 March 2011 - 08:16 PM

Bottom line - when it's your little pink butt on the line, make the call, be willing to fill out the paperwork, and let the chips fall where they may.  I'd much rather be explaining to the company/FAA why I did something after the fact than to have someone from the company explaining to my wife why I'm no longer around.

#634 Lefty Writer

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Posted 25 March 2011 - 08:38 AM

Yep, it's not like a 767 can rely on tanker support for a divert....
carpe cerevisi

#635 Nov64

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Posted 25 March 2011 - 12:48 PM

And I'm sure that all the passengers on that plane is happy with the Captain
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#636 OneStepCloser

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Posted 25 March 2011 - 02:27 PM


Someone sent me this in a forwarded email.  Interesting reading!

Subject: Flying into Japan's earthquake . . .


Great story.  Sounds like all involved, both ATC and air crews, handled the situation well in view of the extraordinary conditions.  Spent a few years in Chitose myself once upon a time, so the story was also interesting from that angle.



Tsk, Tsk....ahem....Dispatch, too.  O0

Look, he did the right thing but waited a little long to do the fuel critical event.  And, for the record, the mere thought of him running out of gas is beyond possible nowadays.  He still landed with 30 minutes which, of course, is low, but being a new Captain his judgement is still being honed. 

There's probably a better than average chance that that DAL 76 had SATCOM on board which meant he'd have clear voice communications with dispatch anywhere on the planet.  They would've said, a LOT sooner, what the situation on the ground is/was and that based on his fuel and other conditions, that he didn't need to loiter more than he did.  He said the F/O was on the radios which left him time to make the call.  That aeroplane wouldn't fall out of the sky for the two minute call to his dispatcher.

This isn't to bash him because in the end he got everyone on the ground and while, yes, it was his pink little heinie it was MORE IMPORTANTLY the 260 souls on board he was responsible for.  Filling out an irregularity report, while required in this instance, shouldn't have even been a thought at any point.

The fact that he was one of the last one in is very telling because it sounds like he was in the middle of the pack heading over.

I won't ever tell him how to fly his airplane but this, to me, should've been how it played out:
He finds out something is going on at Narita, the situation is totally beyond anything he's experienced unless he was flying on 9/11.

CALL YOUR DISPATCHER ON SATCOM AND FIND OUT WHAT IS GOING ON.  (This happens quite a bit...that's what the tool is for!)

Delta dispatch states things are FUBAR at NRT (Narita) and HND (Haneda)...he gets asked by the dispatcher for Fuel On Board...the dispatcher checks that with his figures, verifies, and then suggests he diverts NOW instead of later:  Narita is closed UFN.

At this point the Captain takes variables into account but then diverts to what was suggested UNLESS he has an overriding need to do so:  afterall, the dispatcher has all the info, the Captain has just what little he can get from the radio traffic.  The regs are clear on JOINT RESPONSIBILITY between Captain and Dispatcher even though the Captain has final authority while airborne.  Before departure it's 50/50 and non-negotiable.

The Captain calls his friends at ATC and lets them know he is diverting NOW to Chitose.  Why?  You don't want to be the last in on a mass divert when ramp space and facilities fill up.  You can read what happened when they did.

This report started to read like one of those situations we study every year and dissect into What Should Happen.

It's a great read, HC, and thanks for sharing!

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#637 HoustonControl

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Posted 04 April 2011 - 12:12 PM

Not exactly commercial aviation, but too cool not to share.  I got to tour FiFi at WOH about 20 years ago.


View on Vimeo
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#638 bbqbob2

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Posted 04 April 2011 - 01:48 PM

Amazing video, and so much work to restore the B-29. Never noticed the tail of the B-29, easy to see the lineage to the B-17. A side note from Google: While the treaty ending the war with Japan was being signed aboard the Missouri, 500 B-29s flew overhead as a show of force/subtle statement.

#639 Lefty Writer

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Posted 04 April 2011 - 02:10 PM

I remember seeing FiFi at an airshow down in the valley MANY years ago.

In other news, I read where more wreckage and bodies from AF 447 have been discovered....two years after the accident!

:o

Apparently, BEA officials are saying there is significant debris, including both engines, that they've found. Hopefully they can find the FDR and CVR and some data can be recovered.
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#640 Team Troglodyte

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Posted 05 April 2011 - 04:18 AM


In other news, I read where more wreckage and bodies from AF 447 have been discovered....two years after the accident!

Apparently, BEA officials are saying there is significant debris, including both engines, that they've found. Hopefully they can find the FDR and CVR and some data can be recovered.


From Aero News:

Some AF Flight 447 Debris Found In The Atlantic

"French Investigators Say Two Bodies Located As Well

Crews searching for the wreckage of Air France Flight 447, which went down in the Atlantic Ocean nearly two years ago, say they have located parts of the missing airplane, but have not yet found the missing cockpit voice and flight data recorders critical to the investigation. The team says it also found the remains of two of the 228 people who were aboard the plane when it impacted water.
Media sources including Bloomberg News say that the newly-discovered wreckage was found in about 12,500 feet of water by a submersible research vessel. The wreckage found included an engine of the Airbus A330, as well as a portion of one of its wings. But the data recorders which investigators say will provide needed evidence in a manslaughter case filed against both Airbus and Air France have not yet been located.
The French accident investigative agency BEA said that the remains of two people were discovered in the wreckage as well.
The exact location of the wreckage has not been disclosed. This third phase of the recovery effort began on March 27th. Air France-KLM CEO Pierre Henri Gourgeion said in a statement that the discovery of the debris "gives hope that information on the causes of the accident ... will be found."
FMI: www.bea.aero/en/index.php"

Direct link to some pics from the operation:  http://www.bea.aero/....4avril2011.pdf




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